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Author Topic: LiveWires Trips, Review...  (Read 9897 times)
project86
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2009, 02:29:47 PM »

Crazyguy106: I'm not sure if it is a language difference, or what the problem is, but I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for. You seem to be using terms like legato to describe the way the sound is reproduced rather than the method in which it is played. I contend that a speaker or headphone must be fairly bad to slur things when they were recorded as seperate sounds. Talking about the way something was played is great fun, but it can't help us evaluate the way it is reproduced unless we have actually have the artist there to play it live for us back to back. For reproduction evaluation, I've found it most helpful to listen at the studio where it was originally recorded. As I mentioned in my review, I got the chance to do just that with several excellent recordings, and the Trips were very very close to the reference monitors. Aside from that, we don't know if we are judging based on what the artist originally played/was originally recorded, or just how we think it should have been done.


Sanekua:

I find the bass to be very refined on the Trips, and the treble is perfect for me, straddling that fine line between dull and harsh. Of course your set may be different for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

Using one of my all time favorite recordings, Unity by Ernie Watts (XRCD release), as an example of instument seperation and clarity on the Trips. Each instrument has their own weight and presence, although there is quite a lot happening at times. Nothing ever gets lost in the mix. There's overlapping acoustic and electric bass, but they come across as distinct and lively. The bass section initially seems a touch quiet compared to some of the usual reference jazz recordings like Coltrane or Monk. But when played back on reference speakers (Linkwitz Orion and TAD studio monitors) you can confirm that it was just the choice of the recording engineer. The Ernie's tenor sax sings loud and clear, and I can only imagine what his fingers look like as he plays so amazingly fast at certain points. Notes sound real and natural and never blur. I don't really like the term "micro detail" but (as I understand the meaning) it applies here: we hear the sax valves opening and closing at times, we hear subtle inhaling and exhaling in between notes, and I even recognise the somewhat unique choice of reeds (Watts used a Fibercane reed which is generally considered to sound inferior to cane reeds).

Hope that helps a tiny bit. Also of note, I preferred the UM3X to the TF10 overall, but pretty much all the customs I tried exceed those top universals. Example: UE4pro vs TF10. The Triple Fi's have deep enough bass, and highs extend fairly well, but I take issue with the mids. They seem slightly recessed, to the point where I lose some of the feel or connection with the music. The UE4pro however give me relatively tight, controlled bass, loads of transparency and detail in the mids, and detailed, but never fake or harsh highs. UE4pro is one of the lowest performing customs that I've tried, but it runs circles around their highest universal model.
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kchew
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Ooh, tubes...


« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2009, 04:52:25 PM »

I'm very surprised the Trips are so similar to the ES3X, looks like a fellow forumer here need not save up to replace his Trips. Cheesy

Just curious, did you face any burn-in issues with the Trips, project86? When I first got my ES3X, female vocals had this sibilant "echo" which only disappeared after a month of use.

I do think parts of this review should be put in the FAQ section where there is a small thread on IEMs, it's a refreshing change from the usual reviewing style most of us have adopted, and I found it pretty informative. I found the ES3X and UE11 reviews spot on, even though the UE11 I've tried was a universal demo. Looks like the Trips are extremely attractive for the price, shame about the delivery time though.
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crazyguy106
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« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2009, 05:17:19 PM »

I've experienced more than one instance where a high-end equipment "slurs" things when it isn't. Take Chick Corea or Hiromi's piano runs for example. And I personally don't quite believe in that a speed of a driver can reduce the total amount of time the notes are being held down, but I've heard many instances where it smooths out the thing.

I've heard quite a number of studio recordings that I was dealing with. I believe that LW3 would definitely be up there in terms of good studio referencing sound. As again, I believe it's a good buy. As again, what I didn't like was the descriptions, or lack thereof, in the review, with comparison rather than with the LW3 itself.

What I look out for is accuracy of the details. Which is what I've been trying to say. If you follow a musician for some time, you know what the musician usually does, and you have watched him/her live and get a good idea, you really start realising that some of these earphones or headphones don't cut it because the peaks and troughs of the sound waves are not enough for it. It's like putting on a compressor to "smoothen" the sound.

It's not an obvious thing but a subtle thing. But in a position where a difference between a semiquaver  groove to a demisemiquaver  groove (same notes, a lot more staccato) is important to you to understand the feel of the music, and its authentic sound, then you'd see what I mean. I nitpick about such things because to me the study of placement of notes, the staccato, legato, the accents all matter a lot in every sense to me. That's why I want to know how the LW3 does in that so that in case anyone wants to upgrade I can advise them to get LW3 and get it over and done with rather than lust for any higher products unless they really have that much moolah to spend.

What I'm dissatisfied in from the review is that objective take to give me a good idea of what is being heard in comparison to something (which gives you a reference point). I'm satisfied with the diversity of music and the experience of the author. The reason for technical description is so that for those experienced, they can actually really have a direct identification to the sound.

Btw, I meant to include things like bass note placement, ride/snare/drum pattern, latin percussion nuances when I talk about details, which are very important in understanding groove and appreciating it to me. That's why I want to know if LW3 is up to par in terms of leading you towards that.
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XiaXueYi
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2009, 10:11:57 PM »

Thanks for the reply.

I’ve tried the Livewire Trips (belonging to two different people), and I was left with the impression that the amount of bass was about right but it was muddy and extremely undefined. In addition, the trebles seem to be harsh. I’ve not written them off yet because of their price and that many people have written well about their price/performance ratio. Also, I think this may well be as both times I did not get a relatively good fit and had to hold the LW3s in place.
If I am not wrong, it appears that the fit would possibly affect bass quantity and quality. Since other people's customs are not suppose to fit your ears in the first place, that *might* be an explanation.

Or, it could simply be difference in human anatomy. What might be harsh to one might be fine to another. For me, my Trips definitely did not have such problems - in fact I find it superior in many fields (the natural sound, the three frequency ranges, etc.) to the sound given by a "universal JH5" demo set.

What I concentrate on is going beyond what's superficial and start going into the details of the art itself, and having the right equipment allows you to do that if you're not fortunate enough to get exposed to good, live music. So that's what I'm talking about.

P.S. This is why I keep trying to teach everyone how to observe music. Take it to a deeper level. Everyone can do it, even though you might be thinking that it's pointless. It's highly rewarding.
In the end, music is subjective. No two people will hear the exact same thing with the exact same equipment. It's how the brains and ears are wired.

You think that taking in all the little nuances is appreciating music, that is your call. However, not everyone appreciates music that way.
Some people just like the vocals. Some like the overall sound presented. Some like a nice kickass guitar solo. Some like the relaxing feel given.

For example. In the beginning of a song, having some brand new little things like a very light bass guitar strumming at the background, which adds on to the "smooth jazz effect". Maybe it'll wow plenty of people who has such a realization. But after a while, you're going to hear that again. Some people move on such novelties after a while.

Personally I believe that the gist of a song is the "greater picture". It's no use if you can hear everything to the very minute details, but that song just "doesn't sound right".

It doesn't 'wow' you.

It doesn't get your feet tapping, it doesn't make you feel like nodding/banging your head, it doesn't make you swoon.

Then how?

Which is why some people prefer going for "warmer sound" while some prefer that "cold clinical sound". And et cetera, et cetera.

I appreciate that you like your music. And when I mean objective I simply mean talking about things like frequency response and all. When you're into music, or play it, you're required to understand the fullness of different frequencies and tell differences between instruments' frequency response, overtone productions, just to begin working out ways to actually meld them together. That's why I see a need to talk about frequency responses and all, rather than just bumps. There was not much description added to it, it was "touched upon", not expounded on. I personally take those are rather important, the separation and details.

You can miss out everything of the details and still enjoy the music. That I agree. Great music is great music. But it's even greater when the details are put before you.

PS I do spend quite a bit of time in the studio and recording myself... Many might have a big argument against it or more... But I'd like to state that it helps, but it doesn't replace.
I may haven gotten a tad personal. That's because you seem to have implied or made undertones of, whether knowingly or otherwise, that people who can not appreciate their music on such a technical and theoretical level as yours, are still a distance from "actually appreciating their music".

And also that you seem insistent on being anal-retentive about what appears to be another person's review, not yours.
While I understand your particular zeal about music, I would think it best for you to refrain from doing something even remotely forcing it onto someone else.

I do not have any intentions to make a scene or a ruckus, just thought I'd let you know and hopefully respect opinions and world/music views that are contrary, perhaps polar opposite to yours. While I can appreciate and understand the fact (and need) for you to go to the rawest of details, I am quite annoyed by your "pushy attitude", especially when you start being a little too zealous in how you *think* music should be appreciated; that which gives the message to others of you being more elitist than professional.

Just my two cents.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 10:33:20 PM by XiaXueYi » Logged

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XiaXueYi
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Noobcake Audiophile Turned SNSD Fan


« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2009, 10:29:18 PM »

It's not an obvious thing but a subtle thing. But in a position where a difference between a semiquaver  groove to a demisemiquaver  groove (same notes, a lot more staccato) is important to you to understand the feel of the music, and its authentic sound, then you'd see what I mean. I nitpick about such things because to me the study of placement of notes, the staccato, legato, the accents all matter a lot in every sense to me. That's why I want to know how the LW3 does in that so that in case anyone wants to upgrade I can advise them to get LW3 and get it over and done with rather than lust for any higher products unless they really have that much moolah to spend.

What I'm dissatisfied in from the review is that objective take to give me a good idea of what is being heard in comparison to something (which gives you a reference point). I'm satisfied with the diversity of music and the experience of the author. The reason for technical description is so that for those experienced, they can actually really have a direct identification to the sound.

Btw, I meant to include things like bass note placement, ride/snare/drum pattern, latin percussion nuances when I talk about details, which are very important in understanding groove and appreciating it to me. That's why I want to know if LW3 is up to par in terms of leading you towards that.
I do not think giving advice based on someone else's reviews (subjective + subjective = message gets distorted altogether) would even remotely help anybody. For that matter, reviews are meant to "give a rough idea".
Nobody (or not many people) actually go read reviews expecting to get something remotely resembling a technical report written by doctorate-holders and such. They simply want to find what they want to see/hear about the product. If good, good! If bad, chuck it!

To expect people to very seriously take into consideration yours, or any one else's reviews, for buying anything I would have to bluntly say it will be naive, stupid even. It has been reiterated so many times that music is subjective.
And while your review *may* even slightly help those musicians out there, I should think that a very low percentage of people actually study their music in such great detail (and definitely not many famous pop singers and even those whose music were featured in audiophile recordings), and ultimately such words would fall upon not deaf ears, but minds which simply are not equipped to comprehend such a level of technicality.

Keep in mind that not everyone has such a scholarly pursue of music like you do. In fact I think we'll be quite hard-pressed to find such people.

And in Jaben, it's about enjoying the music. Reviews are fine, but who the heck cares about such details you babble of? Again, no offense intended but this is not the place for scholarly interests in music. Audiophiles are not even diploma-certified in music appreciation or anything, most of the time.

We all simply have one thing in common: we do not simply seek to enjoy music, we seek to maximise that enjoyment.
While getting nitpicky about subtle details in music may be a subset of that enjoyment, it is not equivalent. Please understand that.
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crazyguy106
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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2009, 10:37:55 PM »

Elitist would be implying that I want to keep it specifically within a small group of people. I do want you to appreciate it like I do, at least that's my approach.

I'm not saying that LW3 is bad. Actually I want it to be good, to be very honest. That's why I want more objective comparisons so I know who and how to advise people to get it.

Sorry if I got a tad too personal with the message myself. I just wish for people to try to get a bit more personal with the music. Why I'm saying that is not because I think you're "below me" or anything. I personally want people to be able to view music and understand the intricacies. In case you don't actually know, there's a whole lot more to that, and every time you listen to the track, you find little nuggets to give you new ideas and new perspective, such that you can identify the same musician in another recording, perhaps with or without growth, or to know right away what to expect, to see if you can be thrown something unexpected.

I come across quite wrongly whenever I get agitated and want to express something, and things just come out in the wrong tone. What I want to share is the enjoyment of music, with learned appreciation of the fine details, to really appreciate the tiny things that and artiste does to express himself/herself. That's what I always aim to share, that's why equipment is important to me. So again, I apologise for the tone.

Never get lost in the micro details, which I agree, but appreciate it. Like how I describe most recorded music to be; a book. First time you read it, you get the plot, the suspense, the climax, the interesting junctures. Then when you re-read it, you learn about how the author builds the plots, creates links to give you hints. The more books you read the more you know how it's done. When it comes to the next book, the author does some twists that you didn't expect, showing variations in his ideas, surprising you with new-found curiosity, and as you re-read both books, you start finding similarities, nuances, all the little things which make the books that much more interesting. It's like studying literature, and getting all the metaphors.

That's what I hope LW3 can do that for everyone who gets them. That's why I need to know if it can do that.

P.S. Just read your reply. I agree. But does it hurt to try to get a few more people to be so? That's what I'm aiming for.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 10:39:34 PM by crazyguy106 » Logged

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XiaXueYi
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Noobcake Audiophile Turned SNSD Fan


« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2009, 11:00:38 PM »

Elitist would be implying that I want to keep it specifically within a small group of people. I do want you to appreciate it like I do, at least that's my approach.

I'm not saying that LW3 is bad. Actually I want it to be good, to be very honest. That's why I want more objective comparisons so I know who and how to advise people to get it.

Sorry if I got a tad too personal with the message myself. I just wish for people to try to get a bit more personal with the music. Why I'm saying that is not because I think you're "below me" or anything. I personally want people to be able to view music and understand the intricacies. In case you don't actually know, there's a whole lot more to that, and every time you listen to the track, you find little nuggets to give you new ideas and new perspective, such that you can identify the same musician in another recording, perhaps with or without growth, or to know right away what to expect, to see if you can be thrown something unexpected.

I come across quite wrongly whenever I get agitated and want to express something, and things just come out in the wrong tone. What I want to share is the enjoyment of music, with learned appreciation of the fine details, to really appreciate the tiny things that and artiste does to express himself/herself. That's what I always aim to share, that's why equipment is important to me. So again, I apologise for the tone.

Never get lost in the micro details, which I agree, but appreciate it. Like how I describe most recorded music to be; a book. First time you read it, you get the plot, the suspense, the climax, the interesting junctures. Then when you re-read it, you learn about how the author builds the plots, creates links to give you hints. The more books you read the more you know how it's done. When it comes to the next book, the author does some twists that you didn't expect, showing variations in his ideas, surprising you with new-found curiosity, and as you re-read both books, you start finding similarities, nuances, all the little things which make the books that much more interesting. It's like studying literature, and getting all the metaphors.
Well first we should get something out of the way:

There is absolutely no way a review can be 'objective', so to speak. As mentioned earlier it will have to take raw scientific tests and data, and by then it's just that - data.

And while people can go on and on about what a earphone can or can not offer, it's going to be just extra information. People aren't going to really pay attention about "the decay, the natural sounds and how realistic that guitar pluck sounds!" because let's face it, not many can notice. Things like speed though might be pretty obvious in say, a Predator amp. That thing can give most people a heart attack.

I understand your perspective in wanting to create more awareness about the appreciation of music, but I need to be blunt again here:

1)Not many people care about 'surprises' in music. It's a plus, nothing more.

2)Not many people care about the performer(s)' growth/degradation. I have seen many people talk about it, and that too is subjective (again, let me use my favourite example Metallica, and two sides of people - one complaining about St. Anger being rubbish, another agreeing and/or complimenting Metallica's new direction that started from the "Black Album" onwards).
And of course that is not the only example, but I think all of us have seen more than enough fan wars over music to last us a lifetime.

3)Not many people give a d*** (and that is not hyperbole, hence my need to use such a strong phrase) about the nuances or the performer(s)' intentions. While the examples of books and literature given is acceptable, the truth remains that,

while plenty of intellectuals would give fleeting thoughts about "hey, looks like (add writer name here) came up with something new in his tried-and-tested formula, that is all it is going to be. Fleeting thoughts. You ponder over it for a while, and leave it in memory lane afterwards.

I definitely have to say that while I appreciate David Edding's fantasy books, I never gave much of a thought to his 'growth' or whatever. All I'm on is the characters, the plot, the story as a whole, how having such an interest in a book or subsets would perhaps make me a little more unique as an individual, and nothing more after that.

And I am pretty sure most people are like that. They appreciate the reads, the musics, they may become fanboys and fangirls - but not "thinker-class" appreciators, so to speak.
And no offense intended (many ANOI's handed out lately...), because I initially decided to use "philosopher-class", then related it would be much of an insinuation.

Being many times a target for being a little too analytical and/or intellectual about mundane stuff (being the only "crazy audiophile" for miles and classrooms isn't always fun), I can understand being made to feel like the weirdo. So yeah.

I would like to extend my apologies too - let's try to best keep our exchanges amiable. After all, we merely seek to appreciate music to the max...
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crazyguy106
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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2009, 11:07:05 PM »

Yup. I do see what you mean. Not everyone wants to see music in that sense. Same with books. I could tell the growth through the years Margaret Weis and Tracey Hickman had in their story-writing skills and their plot development. It might be for those who are really hardcore about it... But I guess I'm more of trying to facilitate those who are at least beginning to be interested in it, rather than let it go as "I dunno if I should try".

I think the arguments were pretty alright in the end, considering how everything turns out when everything becomes clear. Intentions were all good in the first place anyway.
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